In this age of Ultrarunning, pacers play a large roll in motivating and assisting runners to finish the brutal 100 milerace. Is this really necessary? In France, pacers are not allowed, and the RD’s evendiscouragehaving a crew. The US is the opposite, why is that? Are the Europeans more purists? Are we weak in saying we need a pacer?, or have we just grown up knowing they are always allowed, so we take advantage of it? Someon the other side of the pond cut a few corners, maybe here in the US our form of cutting cornersis having a pacer/mule.
For the lead runners, pacers should not be allowed if one is running for the win. There is a distinct advantage to having a friend by your side when the going gets rough…even if the “pacer” is not carrying anything. A prime example would be during nighttime, the extra person with a light is muling….maybe not carrying, but the brighter trail means faster running.What is fair? For non-elite runners pacers are great to help those who just want to get er’ done.
It’s time to think about all the top runners at the WS track meet not having a pacer/mule, why not make it a fair fight. Crew only, pacers/mules stay on the wayside.
Just thought I would run this idea by all those elite runners heading to Squaw Valley on June28. No babysitters for the whiners. I like the idea!Remember this is all in goodfun!
Some great races this weekend, the big one in Vermont…the Pittsfield Peaks Challenge.
$2000 bucks to the sole winner, now that’s some prize money. I would be there in a heartbeat if the WS committee did not let me in. It’s on next year’s list!
Mens Race
Leigh Schmitt should lead the way amongst the men….he’ll get 5-2 odds as his local knowledge will take him to victory. Courtney Guertin will follow as bridesmaid again….7-1 Tim Roy has a chance as a rookie to beat Courtney….8-1. Both will have to look out for Nikki Kimball if they don’t want to get chicked!Womens Race
Nikki Kimball won’t run away with the women’s title…she gets 3-1 if she races it before WS. She should race it, asthe Western Buckle ain’t worth 2000 bucks, and she has plenty of those silly buckles. Deb Livingston is her competition, and will be on her heels, but might come up short unless a stellar day awaits…she gets 7-1 with Nikki in the field. Robin Holleran will follow in 3rd but quite a ways back. Laurel Highlands 70 mile this weekend too! Todd Walker will go for another great trail win….7-2 if he’s fresh after Massannutten Sean Andrish will go out hard….5-1, and if he hangs on has a good chance to beat Todd. Randy Miller gets the third position with 9-1…New at this distance, he’s shown awesome improvement over the past 4 months, and could slip in there and surprise everyone if he takes his coach’s advice! Good luck Randy! It’s only 70 miles. Only a few days left to register for the Speedgoat 50k before the price goes up ten bucks! Check out the webpage here
Click the Goat Man for 15% off at Backcountry.com or use Coupon Code 2JV-1-QJE3H. Your discount will be applied once the cart is updated.
I think there are couple key differences between folks using pacers at American ultras and folks cutting corners in European ultras.
First and foremost, people at a race like Western are completely within the rules, as pacers are expressly permitted, whereas the cutting of a course is not permitted at the European races.
Relatedly, everyone CAN have a pacer at Western States if they want. There’s no reason that a top competitor needs to be without a pacer if they want one. It’s a personal choice if someone wants to run without a pacer. There’s nothing wrong with those folks going without a pacer, if that’s there style.
More generally, I think it’s important to keep in mind that there’s a large spectrum of folks who participate in ultras and that this spectrum results in a wide range of races/conditions/rules that appeal to various individuals. Based on the range of runners’ desires, there are ultras from fast and flat road 100 milers to Hardrock and on to Barkley. As races have shaken out based on supply-and-demand over the years, it appears that middle ground has won out. Based on the 100s out there right now, it seems most Americans who want to run a 100 miles want to do so on trails, with between 15,000′ to 25,000′ of gain, and with the option for crews and pacers, but no muling. That’s become the default model for the American 100 mile race. Maybe it’s ideal and maybe it’s not, but is there anything wrong with the de facto 100 mile championship using the standard rules for the sport?
Perhaps if folks want a pacer free 100, they should organize one. I’m not saying you should do that, Karl. I know plenty of folks in the VHTRC that feel the same way as you do. If enough people want a pacer free 100, the event will take off. I suggest that the event be on sick hard trails with a good amount of climb, as this crowd tends to think harder = better.
I respect that some people don’t want pacers or think that there should be pacer free races. I also know that I’m almost guaranteed not to run a 100 that doesn’t allow pacers. Quite frankly, I’m afraid of being out on the trails alone at night. That’s it. Yeah, I’m probably paranoid, but that’s who I am. Otherwise, I usually prefer to run without a pacer and at States have pushed back picking up a pacer to Green Gate when I could have picked them up at Forest Hill.
Also, if one is going to call for top runners to do without pacers based on the fact that they assist the runner, shouldn’t a ban on crews follow? For some runners, the crew is a finely tuned machine that greatly assists the runner, both with aid station transition and mental support. Not all top runners will have such a crew if they have one at all. I don’t see how the crew isn’t a form of advantage that originates outside of the runner’s own training, talent, and toughness.
Just throwing all this out there for discussion.
Ps. Karl, it was great meeting you this weekend.
First off, I’m just a newbie, oft-injured, back-o-pack hack (33 hrs at AC100 and 33 hours at Massanuthin’), so I don’t know much about anything…BUT, I do love the sport, so I’m throwin’ my wisdom into the ring. I agree with everything East Coast Goat said in response to Wasatch Goat’s post, but I also think Trailgoat didn’t really address the “elite” aspect of Speedgoat’s post. Karl wants every advantage he can get at WS, and he doesn’t want your flashlight lighting AJW’s path and making him faster at the end of this month. Personally, I ran both of my 100’s without pacer (and only my wife as crew), and it made it both very difficult but also very rewarding. I was a bit paranoid myself (and tired) during the dark hours in the woods, but I felt like I learned alot about myself in the process. But I digress…the key question is: should the elites agree to not use pacers? I think yes. Make it a pure, equal contest for those who are no longer just trying to survive the ordeal. But I can see someone saying “I’m not in it for the win” and then using a pacer and redlining it. So I guess that gray area is why Bryon approached the question from an event organization’s all-or-nothing basis, rather than a “elites all agree” basis.
And also, good luck to both of you at the Big Dance. Sub 16 for Karl, and sub 17 for AJW & Bryon (last 40 at sub 17 pace)
I’m all for a race with no crew either, it would love to see a 100 mile race without crew or pacer support, only aid stations. The problem is, most in the WS field would not go at it totally alone, they might forget something at the aid station.
Yes the crew helps alot, no doubt, but makes it more of a fair race in terms of support. The crew can support as well as they like, they have a list of things to do, bottles ready, things like that. All runners could have that stuff figured out ahead of time. And for those who don’t figure it out, start now, you have three weeks to get it organized!
As far as being afraid of the dark, why is that any different than walking out to your mailbox at night? Turn up the tunes and don’t listen to those sounds out there….BOOOO! did I scare you? Just kidding man, it’s all good, dark is the same as light as far as “creatures” out there.
I was once asked what I would do if a mountain lion or bear attacked me from behind cuz’ I couldn’t hear him cuz’ music was on, I had to laugh. Music or not, the Bear or Lion is stronger than I, and even an extra person ain’t scaring the animals away.
Some day I’ll have a race with no pacers or crew, it would be fun to see what happens then. Unfortunately I wouldn’t be able to run, I would have to RD the thing.
OH YAH, I am not looking for any “advantage” at Western by suggesting no pacers, I consider a pacer “dead weight”, just one other person to think about. And it’s highly likely (at least in my case) anyone is gonna tell me to run harder and I would…doubt it. I run my own race anyway. Great topic eh?
Well, having an extra person might not scare the animals away, but if you have a pacer who’s slower than you, you can use him as bait. Ahh, No crew, no pacers, whatever happened to the “no music” debate?
Great topic!
I haven’t done a 100 yet, but have thought a lot about the pacer and crew scenario. I think a crew helps a competitor A LOT more than a pacer, especially in the upper tiers of finishers. I ran with Anne Lundblad for over 4 hours during Bull Run 50m and we would enter each aid station at the same time, but she would barely slow, grab a bottle and gels from crew and have a 45 second lead on me each time that I’d have to make up. As Karl pointed out, I don’t think pacers really help the faster runners much for other than safety reasons at the end of a long run. A crew is a huge advantage.
I don’t plan on having either a pacer or crew at Leadville, but that’s mostly because I don’t have any friends who like me enough to fly out there.
Seriously, when I complete a 100 I want it to be on my own.
Music is a whole other debate that I’m not that passionate about. I don’t listen to music on runs, but it is frustrating coming up on someone you want to pass who’s wearing headphones. I tap them on the arm and they jump three feet like I just walked into their bathroom on them.
On another note, great job to your wife, Cheryl, on completing her first 50m. I bet you’re proud as hell.
Tim
First of all I wouldnt think that Europeans are cutting corner folks. I dont know much about the Mt.Blanc race but I can not imagine that the French or other European runners are cutting more corners than the Americans.
Racing in Europe is very different to the trailrunning scene in the States. In Germany, were I ran for more than 23 years, it is almost impossible to be further away from any development than 2 miles. Now running in Colorado, the wilderniss is just next to your home. 2 weeks ago I almost ran into a bear mummy with her puppys. Weeks earlier we saw Mountain Lion tracks.
Ultrarunning in Europe developed from trackrunning and the City Marathons which got popular in the 80ies. 100k races with 5 to 10 loops and 24h races on a 1 mile loop are the most common distances. Most races are very accuratly measured and there is no corner cutting for sure. The probably most difficult roadrace in Europe the Spartlaton over 150 miles has to be done without pacing and crewing is very limited.
50 and 100 mile runs are more a adventure. I had to basically starting over again as a trailrunner beginner: You get wet feet, run in the dark on unknown trails, there are wild animals and lightnig can be a big danger.
So at first, from the European perspective pacing looks a bit like cheating. On the second look I think it just a total different sport with different rules.
Personally I like to run alone in races without a crew. The expierence is just bigger. You have to fight through the lows and you can be damn slow after 40hours,which happened to me at Hardrock.
I would like to see a race were the Top runners have to run without pacers and big crews the results would be different, I am sure.
Markus
Hello Trail Runner Friends,
I am basically a back of the pack guy who has completed two 50Ks.
I agree with Karl about having a great crew and no pacers.
I remember enjoying my runs the most when I was in solitude and thinking for myself.
The aid station volunteers were great people and did have encouraging words, But we are there to dig down into our own
soles. Let’s keep the no music thread moving ahead. I am very interested in hearing all thoughts.
Karl,
Indeed, the French community don’t like this concept of pacer and it’s probably a good thing at UTMB where there are already more than 2,000 participants on the trail (not counting the 3,000 on the 50-miler)! However, in other road races, you can have someone on your side, sometimes even on a bike! So no general rule. That said, I kind of like the common rule of not allowing pacers in Championships (although I think that was not enforced at TRT in 2007, some last minute confusion which Jasper did not take advantage of though). One rule could be to allow pacers only after a certain time, which would address the original safety goal.
Speaking of help, many races in France allow poles, which elites really excel at leveraging. Bottom line, like every race very much differ from others with the terrain and weather, I think it’s fine to have local rules set by each RD. Like it was discussed a while ago in the ultra list, it’s up to the participants to leverage what’s permitted/offered. For instance you can decide to take advantage of the aid stations or to run in complete autonomy (for the purists).
With that, looking forward to seeing who among the elite will indeed decide to run solo. Unless you all run together and pace yourself, like we see the top runners do in marathons?
Jean.
Farther Faster
Great topic and comments. I have actually been thinking about this a bit lately, as living in Colorado once people hear you are running Leadville - offers for pacing seem to come from out of the woodwork. Much the same for Cali runners doing WS, I suppose.
Being new to running and ultras, pacing was one of the most foreign concepts for me to grasp when I first learned of it. What?!? You mean the leader has someone with them “helping” them get to the finish line? I couldn’t understand why someone would sign up for something as extreme as running 100 miles and then ’spoil’ it by having someone to help them through it.
That said, I agree with others that have stated you are entitled to use what the RDs allow. I have no problems with that for someone trying to win a specific event. However, I do believe records that are set with the assistance of a pacer don’t hold as much weight (at least in my eyes) - however impressive they may be.
I would love to see the elite racers throw down mano y mano. Then it’s a race. Otherwise it seems more like a ‘contest’.
Looks like the Plain 100 might be on to something… No pacers, no flagging, one AS.
http://www.cascaderunningclub.com/plainrules.html
Karl,
I’m sorry this is off the related conversation or topic , But
When are trail events going to have larger sums of prize money? and
Can We, as trail enthusiasts ,Start web caming or making videos /
televising these wonderfull journeys ? How can a guy or gal who dunks a basketball make millions and all of us that suffer through adventurous endurance runs in our natural environment have absolutely no opportunities of recognition?
I would love to see a 100 with no pacers allowed. It has always amazed me that in this very individualist sport, many cannot seem to conceive of running a 100 all on their own.
That said, if a race allows them, of course those who wish to should use them. It certainly can be a competitive advantage, depending on the individual. For me, like Karl, I can’t imagine a pacer helping much (except perhaps in a race like Hardrock where route-finding can be a two-person job). But for many, I think it helps quite a lot. Some folks I have seen push this to the utmost by having their pacers mule, but lets not get into that, since I think everyone agrees that is wrong.
In a championship event, for anyone intending to compete for the win, there is no way pacers should be allowed. It should be one person against the course and the competition. I was chagrined to see the USATF change their no pacers rule at the last minute last year before TRT, and strongly feel that they should change it back. Western States, which likes to consider itself a championship, should follow suit.
All that said, I love being a pacer, and will be out pacing a friend at WS this year. It’s a great way to get in a nice long night run with a good pal!
-J
There is something more important than this that we need to talk about.Karl,you didn’t give odds on this little golf thing this week called THE U.S. OPEN.
Great endless debate! Let’s do away with pacers and crews. They are all “unfair” advantages. Let’s go with how Gordy ran the first states. Cotton t-shirt, a pair of cut-offs, cotton socks and road shoes (unfair traction advantage with “trail shoes”). If you get a blister, use your bib pin to pop it. You can’t tape your feet or have any in a drop bag, that’s unfair, you just have to suck it up.
That would not be a problem because there should not be any aid stations with your drop bag. Aid stations are a clear advantage. Gordy didn’t have any. Only some Vet check stations. He got his water out of the creeks along the way. And no iodine tablets, that’s an unfair advantage. Let’s eliminate headlamps also. They are getting brighter and brighter. You have to use the moon. Hopefully it will be a clear sky and a full moon. That way everyone will have the same level of illumination. Those 24 hr pace and cut off time boards at the stations really need to go. You have to fun without a watch also. The RD can start the clock at the beginning and you just run at the pace you feel is good for you. That way, you won’t develope any unfair motivation to run faster. And naturally Garvin watches and heart rate monitors are out, that’s really unfair. You just have to live with your percentage of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers you were born with and deal with it. Low VO2 max? That’s a shame.
Karl, am I to assume your running the Appalachian Trail alone with no support? Is that fair? Well, I guess it might be O.K. Lewis did have Clark as support when they were wondering around out there.
Damn, your mailbox must be a long way away! Just kidding, it’s all good.
Haha - good topic. Always comes up to debate.
If this sounds corny, whatever, but it’s the truth. I ran my 1st ultra that would go into the night, a 100k, when I was a sophomore in college. I wasn’t allowed to run it without a pacer because if I didn’t have a pacer, my parents wouldn’t let me. My parents were there at every single aid station making sure I was safe. Every time myself and my pacer Alex came in to the next aid station, they would always tell me to “Listen to Alex… he is in charge now!” Alex, an experienced ultra-marathoner, had just come off a 20 hour AC100, so he knew what he was doing. And I’ll be honest… I am a little scared of the dark. I admit!
I ran that same 100K last year and ran it without a pacer. While I was faster, the course was a bit tougher so I ran a good amount of it in the dark. As soon as the sun set, the dark woods and the spooky trails gave me a good boost and I blame the dark on helping me through the last 10 miles or so. Ever since then, I’ve been dying to run another race in the dark. It was a lot of fun, and not as scary as I thought it would be.
I like the pacer idea for safety reasons and safety reasons alone (you know, out on the trail at night, perhaps hours from the closest aid station, potential to get lost, tired and delirious, weather could change suddenly, etc.). Suppose Brian Morrison collapsed at mile 93, between aid stations at WS in 2006, and no one found him for another 45 minutes? What a nightmare that could have been.
It would be nice to have a race that lasts over 24 hours not allow pacers, but some people will have legit excuses to have pacers. Then other ppl will think they have good reasons too. I don’t think there could be any race that says “only these people can have pacers and these people cant’. It’s either all or nothing. If I were to RD a race, I’d rather everyone who wanted pacers have pacers… I don’t want to get sued or anything, you know?
Just my 2 pennies in a jar full of money
- Greg
NO pacers… All for it.
No Crew… meh.
I am far from elite but here is my opinion anyway. I am not sure it matters. I know the advantages of having a pacer, everybody is allowed and not everybody is taking advantage of this oportunity. That is because the goals and drive behind why you run with a pacer or not are different. I never have a pacer,and only once had a crew to support me. would I loved a pacer when I was found wondering at 2am suffering from hypothermia at 9000 feet of elevation? you bet. yet I am still trailrunning regardless of how hard or easy my races are. Now for Badwater, i am sure if I can find somebody crazy enough to pace me I will jump to the oportunity.
First I’ll respond to Music to Tim and Charlie. To each his own on whether they want music or not, but the music lover must respect others who are racing by paying attention if someone is behind and wanting to pass, or at aid stations where they should be removed from the head to communicate. The guy/gal who has it so loud might want to think about that, and what we say here.
Markus: In terms of cutting corners, I DO NOT point out anyone in particular in Europe, which is why I said “on the other side of the pond”. I offended a few last year after Mt. Blanc and I regret that. I did not intend to do that. At Mt. Blanc I saw lead runners deliberately cut corners where it was marked otherwise, in the US I haven’t seen that yet, so I had to go there. In terms of poles, if the RD allows them, go ahead and use them. That’s the sole decision of the RD. I personally think they are more of a hastle, but to each his own on that. They are not needed at Mt. Blanc. Seems like it’s a European thing, and that’s OK.
Andy, I’ve wanted cash in Ultras all my life, unfortunately the normal public wants to see pain, big jumps, and the possibility of injury on TV, not a guy running through the woods. This is why we won’t see real money in ultras…all media, even though we know a guy who can run 100 miles through the mountains in 20 hours or less is far more of an athlete than any skateboarder, or snowboarder. They are talented at smoking butts before their runs, and looking like young rebels, but in all likelihood, couldn’t run up a flight of stairs if they had too….I’m sure there are a few exceptions.
Pacer for safety reasons? Brian Morrison at WS is the classic example, but who’s to say his pacer (Scott Jurek) was not pushing him so hard he had problems. If Brian did not have a pacer he may have slowed down and ran 2nd or 3rd, but would not have fallen down on the track 5-6 times. I was there and saw it. Then Scott picked him up, carried him across the line and he was DQ’d. That’s what should have happened (the DQ), but I’m sure Brian would rather take a 2nd or 3rd place instead of DNF, or be made of as an example here.
Jasper, true pacers are extra help at route finding, that’s a no brainer. At Moab this year two guys together is a classic example. When Kyle and Anton ran together both of them could look for flags and find the route on the Golden Spike Trail. (very hard to follow when your head is down) They obviously aren’t pacing each other, but that’s a good example. I always stop a few times and look around for that dam flag when I’m at that race.
AT support. My attempt at the AT is fully supported, noone will carry any gear or water for me, but yes, the RV, the chef (friends) will certainly be help. I consider them crew. The few friends I have running/hiking with me are coming along, not for safety reasons, but just because it will be a cool adventure. I am, in no way saying that I am doing this on my own, I don’t want to do that. It’s more of a project than a Speedhike. It’s just gonna be fun for people to watch me through the tracking device, and to watch me suffer. New adventures are cool, and I’m very fortunate for Backcountry.com to be helping me on this adventure.
US Open: In 1986, a long time ago, when I was in High School, I randomly picked Bernhard Langer to win the Masters, he did that year, so take these odds seriously! Tiger will be in it, so will Phil, But Stewart Cink is due, and he’ll win it by two. There you have it! As a former 2 handicap, I know my golf, although that handicap is climbing, I pay attention to it alot, it’s my plan when I turn 50 to be on the Senior Tour.
I’m curious if anyone has attempted the plain 100 in wa.
Good topic with intelligent comments. As some others have already said:
Have fun out there! Running is good.
1) The RD can whatever rules they want; this is a totally unregulated, unsanctioned, unofficial sport.
2) If you don’t like the rules, vote with your entry fee.
3) I personally would love to see pacers banned, but see #1 and #2 above.
4) When I ran my first 100 I did not use a pacer or crew, not because I’m a purist (hardly), but because it didn’t occur to me.
5) The huge pacer/crew/AS scene we see now is an outgrowth of the “everyone must finish” ethic that was inherent in the sport when it formed in the the US. Ultrarunning here changed the whole zeitgeist: the emphasis went from “elite” to “egalitarioan”. People don’t realize how much US ultrarunning changed the unwritten rules and created a new ethos. This was really cool … and it now holds back the sport in some ways.
6) The real upside of the pacer/crew scene, is not the assistance it does provide, but rather the wonderful way it can involve family and friends. 100’s take forever to complete, it’s really selfish in a way, so for loved ones to participate also can make the experience more holistic and balanced.
7) WS100 is not a championship, in any way, shape or form; fortunately they just toy with that term, because to use it in this situation would be offensive to sports people all over the world, who respect a “championship” as being a contest where not only are all the best people allowed to participate, but are encouraged or even supported to be present. In terms of running, all “championships” must be sanctioned by the governing body of the sport, which of course, this is not.
To all,
I have thuroughly enjoyed reading your posts. I can’t wait for more interesting topics. Have great road and trail adventures !!!!!!!!!!
I choose not to use pacers. Just me against the course. I like the Euro style.
Mad City 100k (USATF) didn’t allow pacing. Is this true for all USATF National Champs or just the road events? I guess I could look that up myself.
Everyone else can do what they want, no hard feelings, but I want 100% of the credit for getting it done because I don’t see this as a team sport.
As a runner, I’m just getting to the point where finishing is not enough and I’m starting to take some risks for the sake of racing. Not really a threat for a win, but a bit ahead of the mid-pack I guess. The majority of the people I’m trying to catch have pacers, good pacers, so we’ll see in a year or two how I’m feeling about this.
Having said all that, I can see the day when my son is old enough I wouldn’t mind having him run with me some, and vice-versa. My daughter thinks the whole running all day thing is ridiculous and completely unnecessary, which probably makes her smarter than me.
6) The real upside of the pacer/crew scene, is not the assistance it does provide, but rather the wonderful way it can involve family and friends. 100s take forever to complete, its really selfish in a way, so for loved ones to participate also can make the experience more holistic and balanced.
Buzz, you nail it right here.
I’ve run Massanutten three times with pacer and crew, Wasatch once all by my lonesome. Although I truly enjoyed Wasatch, there’s something special about having my wife and my friends out there. Oh, and Wasatch felt no more of an accomplishment without them.
We’ll all rally again in the Pacific Northwest in August for Cascade Crest, and I can’t wait. While I hope to be competitive there (at least in my own mind), I’ll only give so much credit to my pacer, as there is only so much he can do when I’m drag-assing it.
Karl,
You make a great point about the safety (or lack thereof) concept of having a pacer. I have only run two 100s (Massanutten in 07 and 08) and used a pacer both times and crew the first time. I think a crew can be very helpful to the runner if used properly. In my case it wasn’t as helpful as I expected so I haven’t used it since. On pacers, the first time it was truly for “safety” and the second time I wanted someone to push me at the end.
The safety thing is kind of a joke now that I think about it because if I was truly “scared”, I would either drop or run with a group of other runners. Not to mention, if something happens to the pacer than my race could be blown. The pushing this year helped some I suppose but I probably would have had the same result by my lonesome.
Obviously, it is an individuals choice but I think my next 100 will be sans pacer. I have a big problem with the whole muling thing because it seems difficult to determine where to draw the line. Good discussion. BTW, I think you’re right about Cink - he is definitely due.
I have mixed feelings here and I wear two different hats.
From a racer’s standpoint I know that not having a pacer at WS is a competitive disadvantage. Because the race allows them, I’m handicaping myself if you don’t use one. What does the pacer do for me? Does my pacer help me find the trail? No. Does he protect me from bears, cougars, and the boogeyman? No. Does he push me to run faster? Yeah, sometimes. The real advantage a pacer gives me is getting through aid stations. Before I get to an aid station late I’ll tell my pacer the list of things I want to get. It is often overwhelming when the volunteers are asking me all kinds of questions, weighing me, when I’m fatigued and mentally not the sharpest so it is easy to forget the vaseline or extra gel, …. The pacer with a fresher brain can make sure I get done all that I wanted to. I have run two 100s without pacers and I do think they would have helped me but unless the rules change at WS I would be a fool not to use one.
From an RD’s perspective of a USATF championship (Where’s Waldo 100km) I can see both sides. Pacers are not allowed for USATF runners and I think that is the way it should be to make it a pure championship. However, let me tell a story about a runner that got in trouble late last year at our race. This runner had run several 50ks and a 50 miler on trails but Waldo was much harder than anything she had done. She was in the USATF race so did not use a pacer as per the rules. It was an unseasonably cold day. She appeared OK at the last aid station but things started going wrong for her shortly after she left. Dehydrated, fatigued, cold, etc, she decided to get help in a nearby backpacker’s tent about 3 miles from the finish. It was dark. She left nothing on the trail to alert the sweeps that she was off the trail in the tent. Our sweeps went by (one of which was a paramedic with IV supplies). The sweeps came to the finish and after some confusion we knew someone was missing. Suffice to say, it was a long night (morning) for the runner and the few of us that went out and rescued this runner. We wheeled her out the 3 miles to our ski patrol aid room and she was fine after a couple liters of IV saline.
Did everybody involved wish she had a pacer? Without question at the time. This runner’s husband left me some not so kind words and basically threatened to sue the race (he thought we had gone to bed and abandoned his wife when in reality we were out looking for her). Yeah, it was her choice to run the championship and thus not use a pacer. However, if she died, I don’t know what her husband would have done. That is scary.
Craig Thornley
5-time WS finisher
Where’s Waldo 100km, Co-RD
Good points from all of you.
But I have a really big one to add. I dont really care which rules apply to a race: Pacers, Crews allowed or not. If I sign up for that race I agree to the RD rules.
But and this is a big but, its really important that the rules also get enforced. If there is no crewing and people get crewed all the way they should get disqualified.
This happened in my first 50 miler this year in Fruita. I was struggling and was happy to stay in the cut off times and than I saw 2 Ladies which didnt carry a water bottle. Somebody was moutanin biking next to them all the time. The RD mentioned the night before that there is no crewing or pacing allowed in that race. Well, he didnt care about that after the race.
So if there are rules and no enforcment of them, I dont see a point of having them in the first place.
Markus
Well said Markus, rules need to be enforced if there are rules. Noone ever wants to set an example, but it has to happen that way to make it fair. Greg Soderlund made a great example of rules when Brian Morrison was carried across the line by Scott Jurek a few years ago….he had to DQ him, if he hadn’t, one might call him a hypocrite, he did the right thing DQ ing Brian. I saw it and the first thing I said to my wife was he has to be DQ’ed…and then Graham came around the corner 10 minutes later.
For the crew thing, Massannutten makes it clear that a pacer CANNOT go ahead and assist the runner at the aid station until he gets there. It would be easy to send a pacer out, retrieve the drop bag and send the runner on his way. At backcountry aid stations this is where it MUST be enforced, even at Western, because that is muling. If no crew is allowed the runner must go throught the “non-aided” aid station by himself. I think MMT 100 is the only race that stresses this point, and will enforce it. Too bad they didn’t enforce some rules at Mt. Blanc, a few of those guys up front wouldn’t have finished, let’s not go there now though…different topic.
Craig, Not to sound “non-sympathetic” but didn’t this women sign a waiver, read the instructions that said if she’s gonna bail she must tell race personel at aid stations? Don’t get me wrong, I feel for her, but it was her fault, if she was competing for the USATF “title” she was likely a strong athlete, but just had a bad day. If she was not a competitor to win, she should have just used a pacer for her own protection. I would hope even in the US it would not stand up in court, even if this person died. The fact that you had a sweeper with an IV proves you certainly did your job. Someday I’ll be at Waldo, I know the course is awesome.
Karl,
I think that in a US court, someone could prove negligence if the race or RD or USTAF bans pacers from a 100 mile trail race and the person gets injured or dies where a pacer could have saved a life. I’m not a legal expert but someone told me once that it’s tough to disclaim away negligence in the US. Just for example, the wording is 100 mile races often reads off something like ‘Pacers are allowed for safety reasons’. What I mean is that forty, 100 mile trail races in the US allow pacers but this one RD bans pacers and someone gets seriously injured or dies, alone. KWIM.
Love the thread… totally hear you on the Brian Morrison thing, Karl. I had a feeling the other side of that incident would come up. I was thinking about that when I posted.
Someone mentioned the family being there for crew and perhaps a pacer. Definitely agree with that. Nothing can get you out of a bad mood than a hug from Mom at mile 52
- Greg
You are probably right Bill, in the US it seems we can sue for anything, and we can kill the subject soon, but who’s to say that pacer without any medical knowledge could save a life. KWIM? what does that mean, not a text message guy here.
…but whos to say that pacer without any medical knowledge could save a life.
Thats what I was thinking. Not all, but lots of pacers like to get more knowledge about the course or trailrunning in general. I think that is a kind of fake security feeling, which gets created with the whole pacer thing.
At the end everybody is responsible for his own life. And if you are signing up for a race you should be old enough to know what you are getting into.
Markus
Amen Karl. Maybe because I think it’s the one and only way, or due to the fact that I’ve listened to the old school legends like Setnes, Bunk, etc… Pacers need not apply. Hell, just like when aid stations WERE THE ONLY AID, none of this water bottle, goos, rambo style bottles, etc… I carry a bottle and goos, but when it comes to pacing, it should only be the runner. Pacers are a huge advantage… carrying supplies, extra light, extra person to talk to for motivation, navigation, etc… Once again just my opinion.
~dawwwwg will hunt
I simply wish to gove Dr. Gordon Ansleigh a pat on the back.
If It weren’t for this gentlemen, We would not even be having this
dialogue. Gordy could really shed light on the pacer topic. Where
are you Gordy ??????????
“6) The real upside of the pacer/crew scene, is not the assistance it does provide, but rather the wonderful way it can involve family and friends. 100s take forever to complete, its really selfish in a way, so for loved ones to participate also can make the experience more holistic and balanced.”
Your question was directed at elite runners but for the vast majority of us who are not in contention for anything, the point make by Buzz is a major, major aspect of the experience.
Karl,
Just checking; the pledge for the elites to go without pacers at WS — that only applies to the guys in Blue or Red lettering, right?
AJW
Karl -
I too would like to see people run sans pacer. This is ultra-runnings version of using supplemental oxygen to climb a mountain. But, I’m not sure legislating it is the answer. How about this…handicapping those that use pacers. Let’s say add 30 seconds a mile for every mile run with one. So if you use one for 40 miles, you get 20 minutes tacked on to your finish time. Or even just have a pacing division. At the end of the day, I’m not sure i really care much. Do what you want but call it what it is.
Best way to make your point is to beat ‘em.
Good luck at WS.
jeff
PS… why care if you offended some about Mt Blanc comments? What you said was true.
agree completely about pacers. it’s actually quite shocking to me that they are allowed in pretty much every major race. i would like to see not only more races that don’t allow pacers and/or crew but also more 100 milers with fewer aid stations. to me a big part of a race should be getting things done on your own. just one or two aid stations in a 100 miler would make things so much more interesting out there.
All colored lettering Andy, cuz’ they”re in it too, including black.
Ultraman, yes the thing about no pacers is very much directed to the elite runners. How bout this though, if pacers were not allowed, they could let in another 300 runners, thus letting more mid-back of the packers the chance to even run, even if alone. Lotteries are getting ridiculous.
Jeff, I like the idea of a certain amount of seconds per mile with pacers, that would be tough, almost as complicated as the Hardrock Lottery.
One or the other as far as I’m concerned.
Mt. Blanc, I mistakenly said a “German runner” was breaking the rules, when in fact is was not a german runner. He was slightly offended, and since he was not out there breaking the rules, he didn’t want to look like the cheater…I don’t blame him, I did not intend to single him out and make him look bad. Altough it’s true I can’t tell someones nationality when I’m looking back at them a few minutes behind.
Ain’t that the truth Jeff!
” How bout this though, if pacers were not allowed, they could let in another 300 runners, thus letting more mid-back of the packers the chance to even run, even if alone.”
Yes, I’m really with you on that one. Furthermore, I’ve seen a number of instances where the pacer for various reasons, was actually more a nuisance than anything else.
What race actually counts pacers in terms of cap on the number of runners allowed on the course? I know it doesn’t apply to WSER (Granite Chief is what limits the runners there, and that’s before pacers are allowed) or Massanutten (the cap is 150 runners, but the pacers aren’t counted in the numbers).
It certainly depends on the situtation. Two good examples Brennen!
I wanted to chime in on the Mount Blanc Europeans cutting the course. I was there last year in the mid-pack with the 2000 plus runners out there. While the front runners may have cut some corners, I have to say the rest of the field was filled with super dedicated, super fit and super mentally tough ultra runners that didn’t cut corners. I cannot believe how much has been written about this issue and plenty from those that were not even there. The Europeans have great respect for their trial systems, more so than many Americans I’ve witnessed.
Oh yea, pacers and crews make it a much more pleasant experience of grinding out a 100 miler, but to go without is far more pure as the sport of ultra endurance running goes. So yes Karl I would love to see a race with no pacer no crew. I’ve done them both ways and and the social aspect of crew/pacer is fantastic however so is the satisfaction of doing it all on your own.
Karl,
Having thought about this a few days… I would say get yourself an experienced WS runner as a pacer for WS. At least this year. Keep the playing field level (as possible) for yourself. You are the Goat King either way.
This is a great topic. I have only run WS100 and crewed it; my exposure to other 100s is limited. That said what I have noticed at WS100 and what I dont like about pacers and crews is the aid, or muling given. Granted I used a pacer last year at WS100, but even when I imploded and bonked in between aid stations I did not take aid (gels) from him.
At many points in the race after Foresthill I saw multiple pacers carrying their runners gear during bad patches, handing them food, etc. At the base of Bath Rd. I watched a group of people meet a top female runner, take her bottles from her, and carry them for her on to Foresthill.
Now I know it is impossible to regulate this on course. I think a ban on pacers would go a long way to changing the face of the race and maybe even level the playing field. As someone noted in another post look how the pioneers (Gordy) before us did it.
I have to disagree with Karl’s commentary on no pacers..Pacers do play a role in many events…The comments on WS being a “track meet” then bode will for a pacer..One needs to look at the role of the Pacer/Rabbit at other world class track events. As many have commented its allowed in the rules of the game at WS..smart athletes use the rules of a race to their advantage and at WS a pacer is allowed.
Tony
This is true, but those rabbits/pacers are not mules either. It’s one thing running with a rabbit as opposed to running with a rabbit that mule’s fuel, light the way, talk motivation/navigation, etc…
The rabbit at WS is merely the individual ahead of you in the race, better yet a source to push yourself to find the next rabbit until you are the rabbit, not used as a resource to replenish yourself.
Tony, you will be the rabbit that nobody will catch, not even
elmer fudd.
Hey Skinny, Good suggestion on my using a former experienced WS runner to “pace” me. It certainly makes sense, however, I consider a “pacer” as just extra baggage and someone I have to think about. My form of “motivation” comes from my brain, noone elses. For me anyone yacking creates me to speak which is wasted energy.
Tony also makes a good point saying, ” smart athletes use the rules of a race to their advantage and at WS a pacer is allowed”.
I didn’t bring up this subject to deter front runners to not use pacers, I just feel in ALL races, not just WS, pacers really aren’t needed. If one is tough enough to sign up for 100 miles of pain, why not do it alone instead of being babysat the second half.
True it is great for a family to be involved, but that’s what the crew is for.
It’s called a “Track Meet”, because there are so many fast runners there, not because it ends on a track…just for the record, not to mention any 100 where the winner goes under 16 hours is fast. Western is tough because it is fast, not because the course is tough….big difference.
George, I am sure less than 1% of runners cut the course, so in no way am I criticizing all Europeans, I only saw a few, it was just frustrating to see it at the front of the race.
Just to clarify, “Tony” above was not me, i.e. Anton/Tony Krupicka. But, if any are wondering, I will be using a pacer next week at WS–Kyle Skaggs. For me, a pacer does absolutely zero actual “pacing”. I am the ONLY person who sets the pace for me late in a hundred miler–I always run in front; for me, a pacer is just about having the company–a sharing of the existential weight of the situation. My pacers can usually tell when I want to chat or when I want to just race…typically it’s the latter, so I’m rarely ever annoyed with them. Usually I’m just grateful that they’re willing to share the experience with me.
Tony Krupicka
I disagree with Tony,
there is a big difference with having a pacer in a 10K or a Marathon race and the pacers which are used in 100 mile events.
In the 10K and Marathon races pacers are part of the starting group and in the middle of the event they may drop out. Or may not.. and win the race. That happend as well.
In 100 Mile events a pace starts fresh after 50 miles or more.
Thats a huge difference.
Markus
I’m with you, Karl. One day maybe I’ll use a pacer (or some crewing) at some long race (for instance if I decide to do Badwater, you have to), but it’s not a level playing field. If people need one to finish, it’s one thing, but elite athletes at the front should be running this alone. And WITH music if they like….
I have half of my 100’s without pacers. Anytime I have had a pacer the biggest advantage for me was the increased company, someone to talk to me, etc.
I agree with Karl in that a runner must be prapared to run the course without a pacer. Ironically my best performanaces have been without pacer (or even a crew).
I think not having a pacer makes us focus more. My 15:48 in San Diego was without crew or pacer. I went stealth….ran very fast.
Yeppers. Agreed. Same here. My fastest 100’s have mostly been without anybody around. No worries about crew, pacers, etc. No comittment. Very focussed. The beer gets warm though.
Good point Joe, I’ll take a finish line crew any day!
50 or less I have to agree. 50+ I’m not sure. What does it take to leave the only aid station in the dark knowing your’re not going to see another person in the middle of the night for the next 8 hours? Karl if you had someone to push you in SD what could you REALLY have done?? For me, 3 100’s w/ pacers, 1 lacking (Plain 100, 2 weeks after CCC100) I like pacers!! Let the race set the rules, find the race you like. I’ve got to disagree about Brian. He would have won if his last pacer had a little bit sense. Sometimes it’s not about pushing you to your limits, but about pushing you to win the race…
Darrell, the only person in SD who pushed me was Josh Brimhall who was behind me. He also ran a fast SD, it just got overshadowed by my time, I always thought he was close on my heels, that is what motivated me to run hard (not to mention I was on fire) If I would have had a pacer that day, it would have made no difference, the music that was blaring in my ears was all I needed. It’s likely that I would have dropped that pacer (unless it was an elite runner) anyway. That day I was just on it, and would have gone no faster. Pacers and their motivation are great for some, but I don’t need someone telling me to go faster or to “work this hill”, or “lean forward” or “eat a gel”. Most of us know what to do, and should just suck it up and do it, and leave the baby sitter at home. Pacers are fine for some, don’t get me wrong, just not for me. I’ll enjoy the heat at Western alone, and hope the boogy man doesn’t get me!
Most of us know what to do, and should just suck it up and do it, and leave the baby sitter at home.
Thats a brillant quote
going running too : http://www.lakecity50.com/index.htm
Markus
Compared to marathon or similar distances, 100 miles races are much more about strategy and good strategy can help you beat faster runner. So when I
Karl,
I agree with the no pacer thing for elites. I prefer no pacer personally. The one time I did use one, I found I mentally checked out. Without one, you are alert and focused…no choice. You’re responsible for your own butt, as well as motivation (or lack thereof).
Plus, it’s a trip at night solo. I dig the intensity of it. Those who haven’t, should try it. Thanks for the odds at Bighorn. Glad to be home with my feet up.
Good luck on the AT, bro…burn it up.
-Bronco
elle est si belle !