Comments on: The final big dance of 2009…..The North Face 50 odds! http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/ World Class Endurance Runner Sat, 31 Jul 2010 07:31:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Anonymous http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/#comment-7363 Anonymous Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:00:46 +0000 http://karlmeltzer.com/?p=961#comment-7363 And of course it has been argued that Wardian simply doesn't train enough on hills (living in Arlington, VA) and that it has nothing to do with body type. And of course it has been argued that Wardian simply doesn’t train enough on hills (living in Arlington, VA) and that it has nothing to do with body type.

]]> By: Anonymous http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/#comment-7362 Anonymous Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:58:06 +0000 http://karlmeltzer.com/?p=961#comment-7362 I think at some point "body type" has to come into play in this discussion. As Ben Nephew said, Wardian crushes people at 100K on roads, and gets beaten at hilly ultras. Although there are many variables involved (fatigue from over-racing for one), could it be that Wardian's long stride and height (6 ft) pushes him past people on road ultras but leaves him vulnerable on hills? Guys like Carpenter, Uli, Roes, etc. all seem to be 5'8 135 pounds and able to excel on hills. Where does this leave Karl? Seems to be a hybrid of the two types? Which gives him that hill ability but also some kick over long distance? Not sure this is a viable thread, but it is interesting to debate... I think at some point “body type” has to come into play in this discussion. As Ben Nephew said, Wardian crushes people at 100K on roads, and gets beaten at hilly ultras. Although there are many variables involved (fatigue from over-racing for one), could it be that Wardian’s long stride and height (6 ft) pushes him past people on road ultras but leaves him vulnerable on hills? Guys like Carpenter, Uli, Roes, etc. all seem to be 5′8 135 pounds and able to excel on hills. Where does this leave Karl? Seems to be a hybrid of the two types? Which gives him that hill ability but also some kick over long distance? Not sure this is a viable thread, but it is interesting to debate…

]]> By: Ben Nephew http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/#comment-7331 Ben Nephew Sun, 06 Dec 2009 05:39:24 +0000 http://karlmeltzer.com/?p=961#comment-7331 On the subject of why more sub 2:20 guys don't run ultras, it's really not just the lack of money. You can't just assume that anyone is going to do equally well as distance increase. From running with GBTC and the Central Mass Striders, I knows many guys that SHOULD crush me at trail races, or SHOULD run faster at marathons, based on half marathon or even 20 miler times. I think people also need to remember that there was a time in the 70's and 80's when the U.S. had many more fast marathoners, and some were running road ultras, extrememely quickly. There is only a certain percentage of marathoners that do well at ultras, and enjoy them. We still don't have a wealth of fast marathoners in the U.S. right now, so it's not surprising to me that there aren't a lot of sub 2:20 guys running ultras. It's also possible that we aren't aware of races by faster runners that don't go well... In terms of trail ultras, there are several additional reasons why you don't see more fast marathoners winning ultras. 1. Hills. Mike Wardian is pretty solid at the marathon, and he doe OK in road ultras, but on hilly courses, he has been beaten by guys he would destroy at a road 50k-100k. 2. Technical trail running. Even people that are skilled a moderately technical trails can struggle with the most difficult trail ultras. 3. Trail endurance. Some can have both technical trail running skills, marathon or ultra endurance, but still fall apart at trail ultras due to lack of trail endurance. This is a good spot for my favorite trail-related email of all time. It's from the race director of the Escarpment, a somewhat technical 30k in the Catskill mountains of NY. Hi Ben, I wanted to point out something that you may not be aware of. After reading your story on the Escarpment you made mention to the small group of enthusiasts that are even aware of the Escarpment. But I am not sure if you know how many good runners have run this course and some of the accomplishments of those runners. Over the 28 years of the race, some 20 or more sub 2:20 marathoners (maybe that would be sub 2:22) marathoners have run this course. Some of them even have excellent trail credentials. For instance, the record you broke was Matt Cull's. Matt qualified numerous times for the USA team for the World Mountain Championships. He took pretty much 10th in the series of races he ran one summer (in the world) feeling as though the trails were much smoother that what he excelled at.... On that same team was Dave Dunham. Dave was an incredible trail runner and at the worlds got 2nd in all of the races. The one time that he ran the Escarpment (1991) he finished in 3:02:54 (Fargo won that year in 2:47:51). Dave had run 2:19 the year prior to that..... In the late 70's and early 80's Ed Stable from West Point ran. He had run 2:17 at Boston that year and finished 7th overall... a good trail runner. We didn't have the support we have now, but he still wasn't going 2:45..... One of my favorites was David Clark from England. He had run many of the English Fell running races. He was a master (40 plus) the year he ran. That spring he had won the masters division at the London Marathon in 2:18 and that fall he won the master's division at the NYC Marathon in 2:18... He managed 3:24. I believe he ran it in 1985.... I got a fabulous letter from him the following week. He was in Ct. and ran an 11.5 mile race there and was disappointed because he barely broke 60 minutes and struggled to get 2nd overall. I wrote back reminding him that nobody else in that race had run the Escarpment that year. I went under 3:20 in that race so ran with David in the early miles. I am here to tell you that fellow fell numerous times coming off Windham. He was cut up some and when I asked how he was doing he said, "fine, just a little fall, one of which will be of many to come".... I liked his spirit. I know I am digressing here, but let me tell you one of my favorite stories.... Charlie Trayer came the year after he ran the Olympic Trials. He called me and wanted appearance money. The course record was maybe 3:06 at the time. Charlie was very confident and told me that I should pay him to come and that someone should be proud to expense an Olympic Trails Marathoner. I told him I ran this out of a shoe box and there was no such funds. He told me he was going to come break the course record. When I asked him why he thought so he said, "Let's face it, you guys aren't running too fast up there." At that point I told him he could stay at my house.... He came up and was talking running 2:30's... Anyway, he went out with the defending champion (Pete Crisis). I passed Charlie coming down Windham (we had little if any water that year and the trail was grown in a lot).... He wasn't having fun. He ran 3:40...... I saw him that fall at the Maryland Marathon and he wouldn't talk to me. He did come back some years later with a new attitude. Told me that he wanted to come back to see if he hated the trail as much as he remembered. He did, running around 4 hours, but he smiled that year..... Anyway, I don't mean to go on and on. What I am trying to point out is that your record is not soft. There have been some very good trail runner who have run this race. Herb Tanzer from California ran once. Did okay, finished fourth in 3:17 (I was third in 3:08 or something). Herb won Western States two years later.... On the subject of why more sub 2:20 guys don’t run ultras, it’s really not just the lack of money. You can’t just assume that anyone is going to do equally well as distance increase. From running with GBTC and the Central Mass Striders, I knows many guys that SHOULD crush me at trail races, or SHOULD run faster at marathons, based on half marathon or even 20 miler times.

I think people also need to remember that there was a time in the 70’s and 80’s when the U.S. had many more fast marathoners, and some were running road ultras, extrememely quickly. There is only a certain percentage of marathoners that do well at ultras, and enjoy them. We still don’t have a wealth of fast marathoners in the U.S. right now, so it’s not surprising to me that there aren’t a lot of sub 2:20 guys running ultras. It’s also possible that we aren’t aware of races by faster runners that don’t go well…

In terms of trail ultras, there are several additional reasons why you don’t see more fast marathoners winning ultras.

1. Hills. Mike Wardian is pretty solid at the marathon, and he doe OK in road ultras, but on hilly courses, he has been beaten by guys he would destroy at a road 50k-100k.

2. Technical trail running. Even people that are skilled a moderately technical trails can struggle with the most difficult trail ultras.

3. Trail endurance. Some can have both technical trail running skills, marathon or ultra endurance, but still fall apart at trail ultras due to lack of trail endurance.

This is a good spot for my favorite trail-related email of all time. It’s from the race director of the Escarpment, a somewhat technical 30k in the Catskill mountains of NY.

Hi Ben,

I wanted to point out something that you may not be aware of. After reading your story on the Escarpment you made mention to the small group of enthusiasts that are even aware of the Escarpment. But I am not sure if you know how many good runners have run this course and some of the accomplishments of those runners.

Over the 28 years of the race, some 20 or more sub 2:20 marathoners (maybe that would be sub 2:22) marathoners have run this course. Some of them even have excellent trail credentials. For instance, the record you broke was Matt Cull’s. Matt qualified numerous times for the USA team for the World Mountain Championships. He took pretty much 10th in the series of races he ran one summer (in the world) feeling as though the trails were much smoother that what he excelled at…. On that same team was Dave Dunham. Dave was an incredible trail runner and at the worlds got 2nd in all of the races. The one time that he ran the Escarpment (1991) he finished in 3:02:54 (Fargo won that year in 2:47:51). Dave had run 2:19 the year prior to that….. In the late 70’s and early 80’s Ed Stable from West Point ran. He had run 2:17 at Boston that year and finished 7th overall… a good trail runner. We didn’t have the support we have now, but he still wasn’t going 2:45…..

One of my favorites was David Clark from England. He had run many of the English Fell running races. He was a master (40 plus) the year he ran. That spring he had won the masters division at the London Marathon in 2:18 and that fall he won the master’s division at the NYC Marathon in 2:18… He managed 3:24. I believe he ran it in 1985…. I got a fabulous letter from him the following week. He was in Ct. and ran an 11.5 mile race there and was disappointed because he barely broke 60 minutes and struggled to get 2nd overall. I wrote back reminding him that nobody else in that race had run the Escarpment that year. I went under 3:20 in that race so ran with David in the early miles. I am here to tell you that fellow fell numerous times coming off Windham. He was cut up some and when I asked how he was doing he said, “fine, just a little fall, one of which will be of many to come”…. I liked his spirit.

I know I am digressing here, but let me tell you one of my favorite
stories…. Charlie Trayer came the year after he ran the Olympic Trials. He called me and wanted appearance money. The course record was maybe 3:06 at the time. Charlie was very confident and told me that I should pay him to come and that someone should be proud to expense an Olympic Trails Marathoner. I told him I ran this out of a shoe box and there was no such funds. He told me he was going to come break the course record. When I asked him why he thought so he said, “Let’s face it, you guys aren’t running too fast up there.” At that point I told him he could stay at my house…. He came up and was talking running 2:30’s… Anyway, he went out with the defending champion (Pete Crisis). I passed Charlie coming down Windham (we had little if any water that year and the trail was grown in a lot)…. He wasn’t having fun. He ran 3:40…… I saw him that fall at the Maryland Marathon and he wouldn’t talk to me. He did come back some years later with a new attitude. Told me that he wanted to come back to see if he hated the trail as much as he remembered. He did, running around 4 hours, but he smiled that year….. Anyway, I don’t mean to go on and on. What I am trying to point out is that your record is not soft. There have been some very good trail runner who have run this race. Herb Tanzer from California ran once. Did okay, finished fourth in 3:17 (I was third in 3:08 or something). Herb won Western States two years later….

]]> By: wynn http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/#comment-7327 wynn Sat, 05 Dec 2009 21:52:50 +0000 http://karlmeltzer.com/?p=961#comment-7327 I like all distances so i agree. Remember, playing Devil's advocate. On the same token though it should all be put in to perspective. -wynn I like all distances so i agree. Remember, playing Devil’s advocate. On the same token though it should all be put in to perspective.

-wynn

]]> By: Speedgoat Karl http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/#comment-7325 Speedgoat Karl Sat, 05 Dec 2009 21:08:00 +0000 http://karlmeltzer.com/?p=961#comment-7325 Well said Stack! Well said Stack!

]]> By: Stack http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/#comment-7324 Stack Sat, 05 Dec 2009 21:02:38 +0000 http://karlmeltzer.com/?p=961#comment-7324 sad really... this is like Christianity... you have a lot of different types of churches that all believe in the same main premise and do the same things but go at each other over small differences. we're all runners... some 'sprint', some run, some jog. some run up, some run flat, some run roads while some run dirt bottom line... we are all runners. sad really… this is like Christianity… you have a lot of different types of churches that all believe in the same main premise and do the same things but go at each other over small differences.

we’re all runners…
some ’sprint’, some run, some jog.
some run up, some run flat, some run roads while some run dirt
bottom line… we are all runners.

]]> By: Speedgoat Karl http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/#comment-7321 Speedgoat Karl Sat, 05 Dec 2009 15:35:35 +0000 http://karlmeltzer.com/?p=961#comment-7321 Hey FF! Well said " ultra folks don’t seem to have the hatred and lack of respect for fast marathoners, unlike some shorter distance guys who completely smack the ability and skill of ultrarunning and runners" I think that sums up the ultra community very well. Many people I talk to that run road races 10k's, marathons, and even moreso, triathlons, the people tend to be all about competition, with elbows flying. At Ultras we just lollygag (even the fastest guys) at the start, then go out an enjoy a full day of running. Then we hang out afterwards and cheer on everyone else, and laugh at the adventure we just had. Even the 5k I ran last year, noone hung around to cheer, they just wanted to get that medal and head home. Ultrarunning is a different sport, the one I like the most! :-) Nothing like watching the last 3-5 hours of the Wasatch 100 where these runners come in, sometimes sideways, and happier than they've ever been to get it done. And look at the Leadville 100. I was sitting about 400 meters from the finish line this year, and watched the last hour of the run. Half of these people were balling, it was pretty inspiring really. Hey FF!

Well said ” ultra folks don’t seem to have the hatred and lack of respect for fast marathoners, unlike some shorter distance guys who completely smack the ability and skill of ultrarunning and runners”

I think that sums up the ultra community very well. Many people I talk to that run road races 10k’s, marathons, and even moreso, triathlons, the people tend to be all about competition, with elbows flying. At Ultras we just lollygag (even the fastest guys) at the start, then go out an enjoy a full day of running. Then we hang out afterwards and cheer on everyone else, and laugh at the adventure we just had.

Even the 5k I ran last year, noone hung around to cheer, they just wanted to get that medal and head home.

Ultrarunning is a different sport, the one I like the most! :-)
Nothing like watching the last 3-5 hours of the Wasatch 100 where these runners come in, sometimes sideways, and happier than they’ve ever been to get it done.

And look at the Leadville 100. I was sitting about 400 meters from the finish line this year, and watched the last hour of the run. Half of these people were balling, it was pretty inspiring really.

]]> By: Tim http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/#comment-7317 Tim Sat, 05 Dec 2009 05:14:36 +0000 http://karlmeltzer.com/?p=961#comment-7317 I agree wholeheartedly. I am an overweight back of the packer, trying like the dickens to improve, who gets listened to by guys like you(TT, I think), Karl & AJW. Carpenter writes books and has a club he mentors. Karl slowed his trek from ME to GA last year to spend a few sincere minutes on the trail in NY with me and I had the thrill of watching him quickly with great agility hoof it up a huge hill and out of sight. It is very hard to put in words but the combination of determination, dedication and brotherhood is not found anywhere like it is among the huge majority of the ultrarunning community. My bet is that we all have favorites on the road too. Ryan Hall and Jenny Barringer are two of mine. I agree wholeheartedly. I am an overweight back of the packer, trying like the dickens to improve, who gets listened to by guys like you(TT, I think), Karl & AJW. Carpenter writes books and has a club he mentors. Karl slowed his trek from ME to GA last year to spend a few sincere minutes on the trail in NY with me and I had the thrill of watching him quickly with great agility hoof it up a huge hill and out of sight. It is very hard to put in words but the combination of determination, dedication and brotherhood is not found anywhere like it is among the huge majority of the ultrarunning community. My bet is that we all have favorites on the road too. Ryan Hall and Jenny Barringer are two of mine.

]]> By: footfeathers http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/#comment-7316 footfeathers Sat, 05 Dec 2009 02:38:29 +0000 http://karlmeltzer.com/?p=961#comment-7316 The great thing about this string of comments comparing ultra and marathon distance participants is that the ultra folks don't seem to have the hatred and lack of respect for fast marathoners, unlike some shorter distance guys who completely smack the ability and skill of ultrarunning and runners. Commendable and respectful bunch of comments here on Speedgoat's blog. Oh, and fast marathoners, don't take Karl's generous bait on running the Speedgoat 50k - you'll hate him and yourself 5 hours into it, bleeding and parched with swollen quads and no end in sight... The great thing about this string of comments comparing ultra and marathon distance participants is that the ultra folks don’t seem to have the hatred and lack of respect for fast marathoners, unlike some shorter distance guys who completely smack the ability and skill of ultrarunning and runners. Commendable and respectful bunch of comments here on Speedgoat’s blog. Oh, and fast marathoners, don’t take Karl’s generous bait on running the Speedgoat 50k - you’ll hate him and yourself 5 hours into it, bleeding and parched with swollen quads and no end in sight…

]]> By: Bryon Powell http://karlmeltzer.com/2009/12/the-final-big-dance-of-2009the-north-face-50-odds/#comment-7313 Bryon Powell Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:22:42 +0000 http://karlmeltzer.com/?p=961#comment-7313 Oh, oh, oh.. Joe, I think I know who's responsible for quote number three. That'd be me. Not the all out best performance by a sandbagger, but a pretty good sandbagging effort and a pretty good Leadville effort for my ability level. :-) The epiphany? There were a couple. Besting AJW at a cross-county 5k, drinking beers with AJW after said 5k, and running better than expected at the Jupiter Peak Steeplechase a few days later. Eric, if I decide not to run the 50 mile on Saturday, I'll tweet it live @iRunFar . If I do run, my girlfriend is likely to be posting updates at the same Twitter address. Oh, oh, oh.. Joe, I think I know who’s responsible for quote number three. That’d be me. Not the all out best performance by a sandbagger, but a pretty good sandbagging effort and a pretty good Leadville effort for my ability level. :-)

The epiphany? There were a couple. Besting AJW at a cross-county 5k, drinking beers with AJW after said 5k, and running better than expected at the Jupiter Peak Steeplechase a few days later.

Eric, if I decide not to run the 50 mile on Saturday, I’ll tweet it live @iRunFar . If I do run, my girlfriend is likely to be posting updates at the same Twitter address.

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